culrusco: remember what I said before about the castle being part-sentient?

stoatsandwich: Yeah.

culrusco: what if the castle drove the basilisk mad, which is why Myrtle was killed instead of Petrified?

stoatsandwich: I think it's supposed to kill...

culrusco: oh, yeah?

stoatsandwich: Yeah. Because everyone else saw reflections, so they didn't die...

stoatsandwich: But it kills with a glance.

culrusco: Funny how in two different groups of attacks - which had to total at least eight or nine between the two - led to one death.

stoatsandwich: Reflections or through something, I mean.

culrusco: that's pretty poor planning on Riddle's part if that's the best he can do.

stoatsandwich: I think Tom meant to not kill at first, at least in '42

stoatsandwich: I prefer to think that Ginny is inept. ;)

culrusco: doubtful.

stoatsandwich: Tom doesn't want to kill people, really, he just wants to make them leave.

stoatsandwich: I don't know if the attacks were by basilisk, though.

culrusco: even if you think Ginny is inept - which I don't - if Riddle can get her to murder roosters and paint blood on the walls, he can get her to be competent.

culrusco: well, my whole POINT is that Tom doesn't want to kill people.

stoatsandwich: But if he took out the basilisk, he'd do it to kill.

culrusco: and they were, at least according to Aragog!

culrusco: no.

culrusco: Aragog said that there was a monster, and he refused to tell Hagrid about it. The passage gave me a distinct impression that he was talking about a long period of time.

stoatsandwich: If the fact that indirect basilisking led to petrification were well known, someone would have mentioned it.

culrusco: not if Petrification can happen through a number of ways.

stoatsandwich: And why couldn't the basilisk's voice be in the pipes and scaring the spiders? Or maybe Tom took it out as a safety measure--he'd hurt the people, but the basilisk was there to kill them in case they saw him.

culrusco: and we don't know that it wasn't, and rejected. If Hermione could do it...

stoatsandwich: Saw who he was, I mean.

culrusco: perhaps - but that kind of reeks of cheap, to me. There are much better ways to keep people quiet.

stoatsandwich: True, but not ways that can't be reversed.

stoatsandwich: Even a memory spell can be broken.

culrusco: can it?

stoatsandwich: Well, through extended crucio...

culrusco: oh yes, it can. sorry.

culrusco: and maybe there are ways that can be reversed.

culrusco: *can't

stoatsandwich: Death is the one thing we know can't be reversed. Tom wouldn't want to risk his future on an unsure thing.

culrusco: there are other ways to ensure a kill, though. Basilisks are good for pre-planned attacks. Not for impulse stuff.

stoatsandwich: And I think he was taking it out of the Chamber to kill someone in a planned manner when Myrtle turned out to be in the bathroom.

stoatsandwich: It was a total accident.

culrusco: okay, maybe - but what you said earlier makes no sense.

culrusco: and I still hold that killing people is not the best way to do things.

stoatsandwich: I was trying to think of how Aragog might have known about the Basilisk without it killing.

culrusco: I don't think Tom was expecting the school to close, which anyone with a brain would realize would happen if someone died on school grounds after a series of other similar attacks.

stoatsandwich: People often don't realize what they don't want to.

culrusco: ergo, Tom was very likely not intending to kill anyone.

culrusco: but Tom would plan. This is his objective, not some offhand consequence!

stoatsandwich: Maybe he was taking the basilisk to do something other than kill someone, then.

stoatsandwich: Or kill a non-student.

stoatsandwich: I wonder if unicorn blood curses you if a basilisk kills the unicorn...

culrusco: I would do that at night, though.

culrusco: less risk of running into someone.

stoatsandwich: I had the impression it was at night...

culrusco: I mean, midnight/1 AM

culrusco: or even later - 3 AM, say.

culrusco: not in the evening when girls still going through puberty are up and outside their common rooms.

stoatsandwich: But if there have been attacks, wouldn't security be tightened? I tend to think that Myrtle snuck out to be by herself -- if there's a girl in your House who's horrible to you, you don't want to sit and cry in your House bathroom.

culrusco: but Olive was still up.

culrusco: Dippet asked her to go and get Myrtle.

culrusco: so she had to be either:

culrusco: a) a peer, whom Dippet mistakenly thought would be a friend;

culrusco: b) a prefect, who might still be up or could be roused. (or both.)

stoatsandwich: Could it have been the next morning?

culrusco: I think Myrtle might have mentioned that, or Olive would have.

culrusco: it seems a bit unlikely

stoatsandwich: True, but there have to be better way to incapacitate people than to have a basilisk look at something that would reflect at them--I mean, imagine the geometry you'd have to do...not to mention arranging mirrors and things...

stoatsandwich: Admittedly it wouldn't be hard in a bathroom, but there are not many reflective surfaces in a hallway...

culrusco: well, there would be the Freaky!Petrification factor. Whispers in the hall..."They got Petrified...what kind of Dark Magic is that?"

culrusco: if you're a wizard, you can probably mess around with mirrors and things.

culrusco: mind you, by that theory Hermione and Penelope had to be an accident.

culrusco: *shrugs* It's Rowling, I'm just trying to make sense of something that doesn't.

stoatsandwich: But it would be easier to actually use Dark magic or whatever.

stoatsandwich: True.

culrusco: anyway, I like my idea. :P

stoatsandwich: I can see Hogwarts having an intelligence, but not one that could communicate to the basilisk. A person, perhaps...

culrusco: no, no, not communication.

culrusco: I mean just the vibes that an angry Hogwarts would give off would infuriate the snake...so just for a moment, Tom loses control...

stoatsandwich: I think the snake would have its eyes open to see where it was going. 

culrusco: I am trying to fit my characterization of Dumbledore and related concepts into the plot!

culrusco: and yeah, but if Myrtle was sobbing, I'm sure Tom could hear her.

culrusco: he might well have been saying, "Close your eyes, there's someone near."

stoatsandwich: It's possible. And it doesn't immediately obey his every command, anyway.

culrusco: mmm

stoatsandwich: I just don't see that Hogwarts would be angry about the Chamber being opened. That's the purpose of the Chamber, after all...

culrusco: we can talk about it later, I was just thinking about possible consequences

culrusco: *sighs* As I said before...

stoatsandwich: Okay.

culrusco: ...the idea is that Hogwarts doesn't want the chamber to be open because it now considers it to be its. That doesn't mean it's right.

culrusco: for one thing - I sincerely doubt the castle existed during the Founders' time, as it stands.

culrusco: so it has changed.

culrusco: if it has changed, it can have warped.

stoatsandwich: this is true.

stoatsandwich: The magic in it will have changed, too, with globalization and such, though that's not really the right word.

culrusco: *nods*

culrusco: so I think it's a valid suggestion.

stoatsandwich: I see your point. 

stoatsandwich: Though I think the basilisk's eyes being open might be less because of the building and more because it's not very obedient.

stoatsandwich: I'm just leery of the building having that much power when Dumbledore has a connection with it, because he can be so godlike sometimes and that's not really...well, human.

culrusco: it's not because of Dumbledore that it has that connection!

stoatsandwich: I know.

culrusco: I am trying to provide a reason for godliness.

stoatsandwich: The appearance of it, or the actual thing?

culrusco: the appearance of it, obviously.

culrusco: Psychometry is a talent.

culrusco: not a huge superpower.

stoatsandwich: Can a psychometric communicate to an object or is the contact only one way?

culrusco: one way.

stoatsandwich: Ah.

culrusco: he can't make the castle do things.

stoatsandwich: See, that's what I didn't get.

culrusco: a psychometric is one who can read the memories of an object.

culrusco: full stop.

stoatsandwich: Because if the castle can do things and he can make it do things, then you have God!Dumbledore. And if he can only kinda tell what it's doing, then that's NotGod!Dumbledore.

culrusco: then ask, maybe? Sorry, that sounds bitchy, but you see my point.

stoatsandwich: I'm sorry. I must have misunderstood when you were explaining it before.

culrusco: I never said that he could make it do things. I didn't even imply it, I'm fairly certain. I can see where you might have gotten the idea that they could talk to each other, but...

culrusco: okay, recap. Just one last time, if I'm unclear, ask question?

stoatsandwich: Okay.

stoatsandwich: Though, if Hogwarts has an intelligence, then does Dumbledore read the building or does he somehow contact the Hogwarts intelligence?

culrusco: let me finish, please.

stoatsandwich: Sorry.

culrusco: Dumbly is a psychometric (am not sure whether I should use that word, since it's Muggle...but nm, later). He can read the memories of objects, or more accurately the memories of people previously in contact with that object, and use the abilities of those memories while he is in physical contact with the object. For instance, an illiterate psychometric holding a book could read while holding that book, from the memories of people who have read that book before.

culrusco: this is all part of the standard, Muggle definition of psychometry.

stoatsandwich: Is this a question-asking juncture?

culrusco: no

culrusco: Dumbledore's relationship with Hogwarts is a little more complicated, because while it is still an Object, it also has small elements of life. Not much, but enough that it will sometimes intrude upon him. He can tap the building as he would any other object (though he can't control it, at all), but sometimes the building's 'mental' processes seep into him - in dreams. He doesn't control that at all, and beyond seeing its use doesn't like it. Really, doesn't like it.

culrusco: or rather, he doesn't like it right now because Hogwarts is not happy.

culrusco: questions?

stoatsandwich: Does he tap into the memories or the abilities of people who have previously touched an object?

stoatsandwich: For example, could he get into the chamber of secrets by holding something belonging to a Parselmouth?

culrusco: no...

culrusco: it's use-related.

culrusco: he could tell if an object had been in contact with a Parselmouth while the chamber was opened, he could see that.

culrusco: but he can't steal a quill of Tom's and use that.

culrusco: take a sword.

culrusco: Two swords.

culrusco: one used by a novice, one used by a super expert.

culrusco: One psychometric with no sword talent or experience.

culrusco: while holding the novice's sword, the psy. can wield the sword to the same level as the novice.

culrusco: but while holding the master's sword, they have the talent of the master.

culrusco: it all depends on what the object was used for, and only lasts while the object is in contact with the psy.

culrusco: *sighs* Listen, I'm going to go hunt up a proper definition, this is getting silly.

stoatsandwich: So if Dumbledore were to have some Parseltongue-activated thing in his possession that had been used by a Parselmouth, he could use it.

culrusco: hmmm...

culrusco: let me think about that one.

stoatsandwich: I'm just trying to think how having him be a psychometric is necessary...'cause if the castle is more than Just An Object, the ability to read objects isn't mandatory, is it? Is psychometry necessary outside of Hogwarts being unhappy?

culrusco: okay, forget everything I have ever said about psychometry.

culrusco: I am going to give you the full definition according to a decent looking site, and that's what I will stick to. Just to what it says.

stoatsandwich: Okay.

culrusco: and the castle is Just an Object, just a very weird one which has been warped by magic.

stoatsandwich: Just an Object with emotions?

culrusco: and it would be mandatory, anyway! Because it's still an object, even if it is sentient. So only a psychometric could talk to it.

culrusco: not talk, damnit, now I'm getting confused.

culrusco: (Link: http://www.occultopedia.com/p/psychometry.htm)http://www.occultopedia.com/p/psychometry.htm

stoatsandwich: But that seems to contradict Dumbledore getting dreams from the castle.

culrusco: or weird vibes, whatever.

stoatsandwich: I know this isn't what you're saying, but it just occurred to me: what if the castle, with some primitive sort of intelligence, is upset that the chamber is opened, and has picked Dumbledore as its champion of sorts, because he appreciates it...? 

stoatsandwich: But shouldn't the weird vibes come from people and not from the object?

culrusco: that was sort of what I was aiming at in the first place!

culrusco: no, because the object now holds the memories.

culrusco: basically, what's happening with Dumbledore and Hogwarts - on certain occasions, when Hogwarts feels enough about something, otherwise Dumbledore just reads it like any other object - is that since Hogwarts has a certain, not-quite-sentient will of its own, it can force impressions into a psychometric's mind. Like...*hunts for analogy*

stoatsandwich: It just seems like psychometry isn't necessary. There doesn't have to be a Muggle equivalent, does there? Does he have to have read Hogwarts before?

culrusco: yes, he does.

culrusco: and I think it is, because otherwise Dumbledore is a God.

stoatsandwich: In a time that isn't one of distress for the castle?

culrusco: I told you, he can read the castle any time he wants.

culrusco: Getting all the memories thrown at him by the castle is unusual.

culrusco: Which is why in his first post, he's freaked out.

stoatsandwich: I don't think he's a God if he isn't a psychometric, more that he's been picked in this instance.

stoatsandwich: Which would freak him out, too;

culrusco: but that's a godly thing.

culrusco: Whoo, he's special, as opposed to, oh, he's just this guy with one particular talent, in the right place in the right time.

culrusco: Which is much more interesting than being special.

stoatsandwich: I'm still unclear about psychometry. I'm sorry, I know you've explained this, but is it abilities or memories that it transfers?

culrusco: look at the website definition.

culrusco: Whatever it says, goes.

culrusco: whatever it doesn't say, doesn't go.

stoatsandwich: Okay, then. 

culrusco: I told you - forget everything I said before that definition

stoatsandwich: So Dumbledore can pick up the psychic residue that people leave on objects... Okay, that makes sense.

stoatsandwich: So if he were to pick up homework that someone had felt really sad while holding, he might feel that, and so on...

culrusco: right.

stoatsandwich: But if Hogwarts is one big object, wouldn't he be constantly bombarded with feelings?

stoatsandwich: Unless he learned to block them out, I mean.

stoatsandwich: Which I guess he would. So never mind that question.

culrusco: if the impressions were strong enough (I'm extrapolating), he might get an idea of why the person was sad. But we're thinking really strong.

culrusco: I thought he would have learned. He's a hundred, he could have had plenty of time to figure it out.

stoatsandwich: Okay. But, see, I think it would be more plausible if he picked up on Tom feeling--I don't know, really happy or really evil or something--than on a feeling of the building.

stoatsandwich: Because I don't see how psychometry would fit with communication with semi-sentient objects.

culrusco: well, perhaps that will guide him to who it is that is causing the weird impressions of the building.

culrusco: object. Psychometry. There is the connection.

culrusco: and I thought I said screw the pseudo-sentience.

culrusco: *deep breath* Sorry, but I have homework and we are going in circles.

stoatsandwich: I could see that. He's walking along and suddenly, whoo, there's this happy/evil/whatever feeling, and he investigates.

culrusco: yes, see?

stoatsandwich: Yes.

stoatsandwich: I'm sorry it took me so long.

culrusco: it's okay.

stoatsandwich: I feel dumb now. But that is cool. And not godlike.

culrusco: thank you. *grins*

stoatsandwich: So. Cool.

culrusco: the pseudo-sentience is because a) I really do think it is, from canon, or at least has some sentience-mimicking abilities, b) because I'm going for freaky!Dumbledore, and him worrying over freaky dreams/visions is good for that.

culrusco: but I can work without it. Ex-Victorian angst is fun, though.

stoatsandwich: It does seem to have sentience, but I don't see how sentience and psychometry will work together. They seem sort of exclusionary.

stoatsandwich: But we don't need to discuss this now if I've finally gotten to the point where I understand this.

culrusco: right.

culrusco: and like I said, pseudo-sentience, not real sentience.

stoatsandwich: Right. Okay.

culrusco: like, a computer can do nifty things and give you prompts after you make some settings, but it's not alive.

stoatsandwich: Right. Though I wonder...is Hogwarts being ecclectic because Dumbledore is? Would Dippet's Hogwarts be boring?

culrusco: that theory has been posed before, but I'm not worrying too much about it.

stoatsandwich: I know. Just thinking.

culrusco: either Dumbledore accentuated a present weirdness or the Founders/castle builders were wacko.

stoatsandwich: The whole wizarding world seems wacko.

culrusco: exactly.

stoatsandwich: They're on crack! :D