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	<title>Comments on: Overstretched, or Kicked Upstairs?</title>
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	<link>http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/07/17/overstretched-or-kicked-upstairs/</link>
	<description>Sliding down the banisters of the ivory tower.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: David II</title>
		<link>http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/07/17/overstretched-or-kicked-upstairs/#comment-848</link>
		<dc:creator>David II</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/?p=161#comment-848</guid>
		<description>I know I'm late to the party on this one, but I don't think that women are actually underrepresented as top speakers in the Union relative to their total numbers (that is, the YPU has a gender balance problem, but of those who do join the YPU, women are just as likely to become debating stars as men). 
Also, I call bullshit on the notion that management of the Union and prowess in debating are fundamentally separate tasks. Last semester, the President and Speaker were Rachel and Helen, who just happen to be two of the Union's best and most prolific speakers (Rachel was someone I could always count on if I needed a speaker when I was FLL, Helen was always one of the people on the Right whose speeches I was able to respect). People are getting deceived by the April Lawson/Laura Marcus phenomenon in this discussion, but I don't think that's the dominant path for women in the Union (and there are men who've followed the same - George Singer, for instance). 
Now that I think about it, if I made a list of the Union's best debaters, women would probably actually end up overrepresented in relation to their numbers in the Union at large (as a quick example, I think the single best speaker in each of four parties - the Libs, PoL, IP, and PoR - are all women) just as they are overrepresented on E-board. Doesn't change the fact that the Union has a gender problem, but most of the preceding discussion of debate in the YPU bears little relation to the facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know I&#8217;m late to the party on this one, but I don&#8217;t think that women are actually underrepresented as top speakers in the Union relative to their total numbers (that is, the YPU has a gender balance problem, but of those who do join the YPU, women are just as likely to become debating stars as men).<br />
Also, I call bullshit on the notion that management of the Union and prowess in debating are fundamentally separate tasks. Last semester, the President and Speaker were Rachel and Helen, who just happen to be two of the Union&#8217;s best and most prolific speakers (Rachel was someone I could always count on if I needed a speaker when I was FLL, Helen was always one of the people on the Right whose speeches I was able to respect). People are getting deceived by the April Lawson/Laura Marcus phenomenon in this discussion, but I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s the dominant path for women in the Union (and there are men who&#8217;ve followed the same - George Singer, for instance).<br />
Now that I think about it, if I made a list of the Union&#8217;s best debaters, women would probably actually end up overrepresented in relation to their numbers in the Union at large (as a quick example, I think the single best speaker in each of four parties - the Libs, PoL, IP, and PoR - are all women) just as they are overrepresented on E-board. Doesn&#8217;t change the fact that the Union has a gender problem, but most of the preceding discussion of debate in the YPU bears little relation to the facts.</p>
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		<title>By: Dara</title>
		<link>http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/07/17/overstretched-or-kicked-upstairs/#comment-847</link>
		<dc:creator>Dara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/?p=161#comment-847</guid>
		<description>I know I wrote it. However, it was followed by a "more importantly" for a reason. I assume that the hypothetical fraction of readers to whom you allude will have the understanding to read past that sentence and understand that the thrust of the post doesn't fit into standard affirmative-action policy-oriented discussions, the existence of that clause to the contrary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know I wrote it. However, it was followed by a &#8220;more importantly&#8221; for a reason. I assume that the hypothetical fraction of readers to whom you allude will have the understanding to read past that sentence and understand that the thrust of the post doesn&#8217;t fit into standard affirmative-action policy-oriented discussions, the existence of that clause to the contrary.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/07/17/overstretched-or-kicked-upstairs/#comment-846</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/?p=161#comment-846</guid>
		<description>"[this is a reason] to ensure that the pools from which candidates are selected are of equal size, so that women don’t feel the need to “prove themselves” in male-dominated settings"

This may not be intended as an endorsement of something, but I guarantee you that it will be read as such by some non-negligible fraction of people who are not me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;[this is a reason] to ensure that the pools from which candidates are selected are of equal size, so that women don’t feel the need to “prove themselves” in male-dominated settings&#8221;</p>
<p>This may not be intended as an endorsement of something, but I guarantee you that it will be read as such by some non-negligible fraction of people who are not me.</p>
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		<title>By: Dara Lind</title>
		<link>http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/07/17/overstretched-or-kicked-upstairs/#comment-816</link>
		<dc:creator>Dara Lind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/?p=161#comment-816</guid>
		<description>I really didn't want the post to be about the institution of affirmative action at all -- and really, it wasn't, Will's sendup aside. That being said, even the passing reference I did make to affirmative action had nothing to do with institutional recognition of leadership differences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really didn&#8217;t want the post to be about the institution of affirmative action at all &#8212; and really, it wasn&#8217;t, Will&#8217;s sendup aside. That being said, even the passing reference I did make to affirmative action had nothing to do with institutional recognition of leadership differences.</p>
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		<title>By: David Broockman</title>
		<link>http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/07/17/overstretched-or-kicked-upstairs/#comment-815</link>
		<dc:creator>David Broockman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/?p=161#comment-815</guid>
		<description>Yes, but wouldn't institutional recognition of those differences only reinforce them...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but wouldn&#8217;t institutional recognition of those differences only reinforce them&#8230;?</p>
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		<title>By: Dara Lind</title>
		<link>http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/07/17/overstretched-or-kicked-upstairs/#comment-809</link>
		<dc:creator>Dara Lind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/?p=161#comment-809</guid>
		<description>Rather, I think it's that rather than using the fact that many women are drawn to debate as an occasion to interrogate the processes that have led debate to become identified with male leadership, we've bifurcated our definition of leadership to accommodate "male" and "female" styles, but both of those styles are culturally generated. That said, they're also internalized, so it's not as easy as just blowing up the concepts -- as with so much of the postmodern world, we need to walk the line between recognizing the original arbitrariness and recognizing the meaning it's accrued for people (in this case, women who have internalized that they are "female leaders").</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rather, I think it&#8217;s that rather than using the fact that many women are drawn to debate as an occasion to interrogate the processes that have led debate to become identified with male leadership, we&#8217;ve bifurcated our definition of leadership to accommodate &#8220;male&#8221; and &#8220;female&#8221; styles, but both of those styles are culturally generated. That said, they&#8217;re also internalized, so it&#8217;s not as easy as just blowing up the concepts &#8212; as with so much of the postmodern world, we need to walk the line between recognizing the original arbitrariness and recognizing the meaning it&#8217;s accrued for people (in this case, women who have internalized that they are &#8220;female leaders&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>By: David Broockman</title>
		<link>http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/07/17/overstretched-or-kicked-upstairs/#comment-808</link>
		<dc:creator>David Broockman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/?p=161#comment-808</guid>
		<description>I think that's a much more persuasive explanation for the phenomenon. But if the problem is now what happens when the medium of debate and gender roles clash, it seems like the the point of the rest of your post changes entirely.

Using your framework, affirmative action would seem to imply that there is something qualitatively different about female leadership, the reason you think we're in this mess in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that&#8217;s a much more persuasive explanation for the phenomenon. But if the problem is now what happens when the medium of debate and gender roles clash, it seems like the the point of the rest of your post changes entirely.</p>
<p>Using your framework, affirmative action would seem to imply that there is something qualitatively different about female leadership, the reason you think we&#8217;re in this mess in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: Dara Lind</title>
		<link>http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/07/17/overstretched-or-kicked-upstairs/#comment-807</link>
		<dc:creator>Dara Lind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:26:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/?p=161#comment-807</guid>
		<description>I don't think that "But women PREFER to be managers!" settles the question. Unless you can go back and ask these girls in, say, elementary school or middle school "So do you want to be a manager, or a debater?", you have no idea whether the eventual "preference" for management developed because they have some sort of innate yen for the stuff or because of nurture/conditioning: maybe they have a desire for recognition and found it as managers, maybe some other process occurred. 

I do, however, cede to Helen on alchemy, and I think that goes a long way toward explaining what David III wants me to flesh out. It isn't just that men &lt;i&gt;pre&lt;/i&gt;dominate in debate, it's that they &lt;i&gt;dominate&lt;/i&gt; it. The form itself has become gendered (this is especially true where debate shades into PoR-style pugilism). Women who have been told their whole lives that they, as girls, are better at compromise and bringiing people together -- which is to say, women brought up within the educational mainstream -- are more likely to be uncomfortable with such an environment even if they are attracted to it, and decide that they'd "rather just watch" (which is an attitude toward debate I've seen expressed by plenty of women, primarily underclassmen, and never by men). Getting over the discomfort often takes the form of feeling known and valued before getting on the floor -- hence having something concrete to point to.

And as long as we're getting into particular Union careers: Helen benefited from running against another woman who had distinguished herself primarily through debate, and her reputation had suffered worse than Helen's for it. And as for "the last male secretary" -- I don't want to dredge &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; up again, but it's worth pointing out that his administrative experience was considered irrelevant to debate. The distinction is the problem, far more than its gendered nature -- I agree with Leah on this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think that &#8220;But women PREFER to be managers!&#8221; settles the question. Unless you can go back and ask these girls in, say, elementary school or middle school &#8220;So do you want to be a manager, or a debater?&#8221;, you have no idea whether the eventual &#8220;preference&#8221; for management developed because they have some sort of innate yen for the stuff or because of nurture/conditioning: maybe they have a desire for recognition and found it as managers, maybe some other process occurred. </p>
<p>I do, however, cede to Helen on alchemy, and I think that goes a long way toward explaining what David III wants me to flesh out. It isn&#8217;t just that men <i>pre</i>dominate in debate, it&#8217;s that they <i>dominate</i> it. The form itself has become gendered (this is especially true where debate shades into PoR-style pugilism). Women who have been told their whole lives that they, as girls, are better at compromise and bringiing people together &#8212; which is to say, women brought up within the educational mainstream &#8212; are more likely to be uncomfortable with such an environment even if they are attracted to it, and decide that they&#8217;d &#8220;rather just watch&#8221; (which is an attitude toward debate I&#8217;ve seen expressed by plenty of women, primarily underclassmen, and never by men). Getting over the discomfort often takes the form of feeling known and valued before getting on the floor &#8212; hence having something concrete to point to.</p>
<p>And as long as we&#8217;re getting into particular Union careers: Helen benefited from running against another woman who had distinguished herself primarily through debate, and her reputation had suffered worse than Helen&#8217;s for it. And as for &#8220;the last male secretary&#8221; &#8212; I don&#8217;t want to dredge <i>that</i> up again, but it&#8217;s worth pointing out that his administrative experience was considered irrelevant to debate. The distinction is the problem, far more than its gendered nature &#8212; I agree with Leah on this.</p>
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		<title>By: David Broockman</title>
		<link>http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/07/17/overstretched-or-kicked-upstairs/#comment-805</link>
		<dc:creator>David Broockman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/?p=161#comment-805</guid>
		<description>Hint: I'm living with him.

Also, I do think Dara needs to answer Helen and flesh out this sentence "But even to get the acknowledgment, women have to get noticed and taken seriously, which is tricky in an environment where they’re underrepresented." a &lt;i&gt;lot&lt;/i&gt; more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hint: I&#8217;m living with him.</p>
<p>Also, I do think Dara needs to answer Helen and flesh out this sentence &#8220;But even to get the acknowledgment, women have to get noticed and taken seriously, which is tricky in an environment where they’re underrepresented.&#8221; a <i>lot</i> more.</p>
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		<title>By: Noah</title>
		<link>http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/07/17/overstretched-or-kicked-upstairs/#comment-804</link>
		<dc:creator>Noah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/?p=161#comment-804</guid>
		<description>Who was the last male secretary?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who was the last male secretary?</p>
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