Comments on: Good and evil are the prejudices of God — said the snake. http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/04/05/good-and-evil-are-the-prejudices-of-god-said-the-snake/ Sliding down the banisters of the ivory tower. Tue, 07 Feb 2012 14:24:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Andrew Stegmaier http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/04/05/good-and-evil-are-the-prejudices-of-god-said-the-snake/#comment-403 Andrew Stegmaier Sun, 06 Apr 2008 20:38:16 +0000 http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/?p=63#comment-403 How do have any idea whether Bush thoughtlessly or thoughtfully sacrificed the people who did the torturing? A legal memo that tries to make sure that the difficult decision that he made is still technically possible (i.e. allowed to proceed under the laws under the united states) is a totally different thing from a heart-to-heart conversation or even from a philosophical treatise. Wouldn't a good-souled politician--one who did privately struggle with the consequences of his actions--still use rhetoric that presented his decision as both necessary and legal? On the broader point, though--that political virtue is different from personal virtue (which I would call true virtue)--you are correct. Politics tends to corrupt the soul of anyone but the strongest kind of man. How do have any idea whether Bush thoughtlessly or thoughtfully sacrificed the people who did the torturing? A legal memo that tries to make sure that the difficult decision that he made is still technically possible (i.e. allowed to proceed under the laws under the united states) is a totally different thing from a heart-to-heart conversation or even from a philosophical treatise. Wouldn’t a good-souled politician–one who did privately struggle with the consequences of his actions–still use rhetoric that presented his decision as both necessary and legal?

On the broader point, though–that political virtue is different from personal virtue (which I would call true virtue)–you are correct. Politics tends to corrupt the soul of anyone but the strongest kind of man.

]]> By: Nicola http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/04/05/good-and-evil-are-the-prejudices-of-god-said-the-snake/#comment-402 Nicola Sun, 06 Apr 2008 19:11:00 +0000 http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/?p=63#comment-402 There's an important and fundamental distinction between killing someone -- or, in this case, asking someone to risk being killed -- and asking/encouraging someone to destroy himself in a metaphysical, rather than physical, sense. Total war is horrifying and degrading to our sense of humanity. The mechanization of death makes it far easier to separate ourselves from the human cost of what we're doing. That doesn't mean that war is immoral, or that presidents who go to war are wicked; political leadership requires a person to do morally repugnant things, because political virtue is not the same as virtue for the private citizen. A president who sends men to their deaths, or who kills the civilians of an enemy nation (no matter how justified on politically utilitarian grounds) <i>should</i> feel guilty and ashamed, even if he knows it was necessary. Sending a man into battle should never be easy, and that's only a risk to his body, not his soul. The question of Bush's wickedness is really a question of (if you'll pardon the allusion) what the President knew and when he knew it. <i>Asking</i> men to destroy themselves -- telling them that this will, in a fundamental way, <i>break</i> them, and asking that they do it anyway -- for the greater good is one thing; treating it as an irrelevance is something entirely different, and evidence either of ignorance or a callous disregard for human virtue. Yes, of course someone can, in good faith, disagree with me on torture. I will readily admit that many people do, and that I can conceive of (entirely hypothetical) circumstances under which torture would be justified. It isn't a question of what we're doing to other people (although that is important and should weigh on the minds of the decision-makers) but what we're doing to ourselves. The wickedness isn't in the war (though stupidity may be); it's in the thoughtless sacrifice of something more important than life. There’s an important and fundamental distinction between killing someone — or, in this case, asking someone to risk being killed — and asking/encouraging someone to destroy himself in a metaphysical, rather than physical, sense.

Total war is horrifying and degrading to our sense of humanity. The mechanization of death makes it far easier to separate ourselves from the human cost of what we’re doing. That doesn’t mean that war is immoral, or that presidents who go to war are wicked; political leadership requires a person to do morally repugnant things, because political virtue is not the same as virtue for the private citizen. A president who sends men to their deaths, or who kills the civilians of an enemy nation (no matter how justified on politically utilitarian grounds) should feel guilty and ashamed, even if he knows it was necessary. Sending a man into battle should never be easy, and that’s only a risk to his body, not his soul.

The question of Bush’s wickedness is really a question of (if you’ll pardon the allusion) what the President knew and when he knew it. Asking men to destroy themselves — telling them that this will, in a fundamental way, break them, and asking that they do it anyway — for the greater good is one thing; treating it as an irrelevance is something entirely different, and evidence either of ignorance or a callous disregard for human virtue.

Yes, of course someone can, in good faith, disagree with me on torture. I will readily admit that many people do, and that I can conceive of (entirely hypothetical) circumstances under which torture would be justified. It isn’t a question of what we’re doing to other people (although that is important and should weigh on the minds of the decision-makers) but what we’re doing to ourselves.

The wickedness isn’t in the war (though stupidity may be); it’s in the thoughtless sacrifice of something more important than life.

]]> By: Matt http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/index.php/2008/04/05/good-and-evil-are-the-prejudices-of-god-said-the-snake/#comment-397 Matt Sun, 06 Apr 2008 07:36:51 +0000 http://www.nazg.com/iqrai/?p=63#comment-397 What about the government that orders the dropping of an atomic bomb on Hiroshima? Or the firebombing of Dresden? These were dehumanizing acts of war that saw thousands of women and children killed or horribly maimed. Certainly some of the men responsible later felt that their participation was immoral, or that the order was immoral, yet we don't call FDR and Truman wicked men. They were great men who decided, on utilitarian grounds, that such evil was necessary, and they demanded that someone else pay the price. Presidents have always thrown young Americans on grenades when they believed the office demanded it. Maybe Bush was wrong, but that does not make him wicked. Do you imagine that no one could disagree with you on this issue in good faith? Or is everyone who doesn't draw the line in the same place as you and Mother Jones a wicked, immoral warmonger? What about the government that orders the dropping of an atomic bomb on Hiroshima? Or the firebombing of Dresden? These were dehumanizing acts of war that saw thousands of women and children killed or horribly maimed. Certainly some of the men responsible later felt that their participation was immoral, or that the order was immoral, yet we don’t call FDR and Truman wicked men. They were great men who decided, on utilitarian grounds, that such evil was necessary, and they demanded that someone else pay the price.

Presidents have always thrown young Americans on grenades when they believed the office demanded it. Maybe Bush was wrong, but that does not make him wicked. Do you imagine that no one could disagree with you on this issue in good faith? Or is everyone who doesn’t draw the line in the same place as you and Mother Jones a wicked, immoral warmonger?

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